This stuff is why I am so cynical about modern software development management. Bill Atkinson wrote QuickDraw, a masterpiece of low level programming, but also had a very solid grasp about what it was for right down to the UX it was to enable, and as shown here how the UX evolved with user testing. These days the idea someone can span that range is seen as an impossibility.
He also wrote Hypercard, and I'd really like to see a modern successor which had the attributes:
- stand-alone desktop app (and/or app for iPad on app store)
- simple syntax (block diagramming like Scratch/Blockly seems a natural fit)
- simple creation/arrangement of standard GUI elements (so that localization and accessibility still work)
- being opensource (still feeling burned by having donated to Runtime Revolution/Livecode's opensource effort)
(so basically a modern, opensource alternative to VisualBasic, and yes, I keep asking about this --- there are lots of programs in this space, but none are quite as easy/simple as to have gotten me past the hurdle of download/install/actually try making something/being successful at it, and I freely admit I'm a mediocre programmer with not enough time who is bogged down on his current project....)
> These days the idea someone can span that range is seen as an impossibility.
I don't know about that, but in many/most organisations it's actively discouraged so you simply don't see it. That naturally occurs in large corporations where individuals have very narrow responsibilities, but I've also been surprised to find it happening even in the smallest of startups on occasion.
His software was so strong, it made the Macintosh what it was at the time, and indirectly shaped Windows and Linux’s UI to either imitate or showboat against it. The magnitude of his contributions to everything we think was normal now can’t even be stated. Apple drifts around more but the products still have a lot of his DNA in it.
Agree. I hate to see Bill and team not get the credit they deserve. There is the idea (so famously put forward by Bill Gates) that Windows and Lisa (Mac) both ripped off Xerox — and I think that is misleading at best. As you can see in the Polaroids, Lisa took the lead from Xerox but then charted their own course. (Windows, it is said, then copied that.)
Features are planned in sprints. Add a widget here, remove a widget there. We end up with no design principles or vision, just a Frankenstein monster of junk.
His process sounds a lot like (dare I say) waterfall. Spending a long time in the design phase until you know what you want to build.
From the video and what I've read at folklore.org it sounds more like what Agile purports to be, writing software in a tight iteration loop, trying things, getting feedback and adapting to the changing needs of the project.
I think where Agile goes wrong is people thinking that you don't need someone who is actually experienced and good at writing software like this (like Atkinson), you can just pick a random individual off the streets who a lot of the time can't even code, and have them take a theoretical course about writing software like this.
Your question made me throw up in my mouth. RAD, Agile, Dacom, etc. were attempts to codify natural processes so that there could be some semblance of accountability for the resource allocations. They were not a glimmer in the eye of their warped creators eyes until decades after Lisa.
What? No it’s not, spanning a huge range like this is the prototypical skill set for a startup founder.
It’s crazy to post a take like this on the website of Ycombinator, whose entire business model revolves around finding and elevating exactly those types of people.
I don't get the connection between the skillset of a startup founder and someone like Bill. While Jobs showcases taking something from vision to product, your Wozniaks and Atkinsons solved the countless problems at steps along the entire path of the journey. These seem like very complimentary but distinct skillsets. I interpreted the OP as stating there's a lack of the latter, but they didn't comment on the former.
Every startup goes through a phase where there are very few technical people spanning a huge range of responsibilities. Not all founders or early employees are Steve Jobs. Many are like Bill Atkinson: a broadly talented person who shapes many aspects of a product in development.
While Apple was not a startup at the time Bill did his work there, the Mac project very much was a startup inside Apple.
Well Woz was pretty good at software too. He wrote a lot of the early Apple software, including Integer Basic (to write games) and the low level disk software, called RWTS for Read/Write Track/Sector.
I love the Computer History Museum (this is published on their channel).
The museum itself is not so special, but it's run by all these retired volunteer industry veterans that have incredible stories to tell, and they are such delightful and smart people. They were the ones at the front-lines when everything was starting.
There was a day they were demonstrating the first commercially available harddisk from 1956 [0], it would be one thing to see it behind glass but the volunteers had built an arduino interface to drive it and interface it to bring it back to life, and hearing them explain how everything works with the requisite enthusiasm was a great experience for a vintage computer nerd. That sucker is pneumatic !
Disclaimer: I'm a member of the Computer History Museum
My favorite part about the Computer History Museum is the events they hold occasionally where they have live interviews and demos from legendary figures in computing. Over the years I've been to events celebrating the 45th anniversary of the Xerox Alto (including a live demo of Smalltalk-76 run by Dan Ingalls on a Xerox Alto!), the 40th anniversary of the Apple Lisa, and the 40th anniversary of the original Apple Macintosh. There's also a chance to meet legendary figures in person. I've met and had conversations with Dan Ingalls, Yoshiki Ohshima (who is a long-time collaborator of Xerox PARC legend Alan Kay), Charles Simonyi (created the Bravo word processor at Xerox PARC, became wealthy at Microsoft, and founded Intentional Software), Marshall Kirk McKusick (BSD), David Ungar (created the Self programming language), and Donald Knuth (The Art of Computer Programming, Concrete Mathematics, TeX, and much more).
I'm also a fan of the museum's recorded interviews with legendary figures and the digital artifacts they have, including source code to historical projects.
One of the best parts about living near Silicon Valley, in my opinion, is being able to meet and converse with people who made significant contributions to computing, since many of them live in Silicon Valley. While the cost of living is a challenge (I'm a tenure-track professor who teaches CS and thus I don't have a FAANG salary, not to mention I don't get bonuses or stock grants), it's great being able to be in close proximity to the people who encouraged me to pursue a career in computing.
As a CHM staffer who produced the Lisa@40 and Mac@40 events, I'm so gratified to hear these were as meaningful to you as they were to me! :)
So grateful to have you as a member. Don't miss our upcoming 1995 retrospective event focusing on Netscape's IPO and Windows 95 & Internet Explorer, on August 26! Should be a another fun nostalgic event: https://computerhistory.org/events/1995-the-internets-big-ba...
Oh, and I sat in on the interview with Bill Atkinson posted by OP and it's great to see this clip getting some love from HN. Our Oral History program is so awesome too.
--David Murphy
The Xerox influence was real but limited - Apple's team iterated extensively as shown in these polaroids, adding crucial innovations like drag-and-drop, pull-down menus, and the desktop metaphor that weren't in the original Alto/Star interfaces.
The desktop metaphor absolutely was in the Xerox Star and that was copied by the Lisa team (and carried over to the Mac) after they viewed it when Star was first announce. That’s well documented. The Star also had limited pull down menus mostly a single menu item on the top right of every window that was hamburger-like in design that had items in it.
The Xerox Development Environment (TAJO/XDE) was more windows like where windows were processes and shrunk down to the bottom of the screen when closed. Star was developed using Tajo but are completely separate systems with very different user interfaces. For example Tajo used cut/copy/paste and any window could be set overlapping where as Star use a MOVE, COPY where use selected the object pressed the verb action button, and then selected the destination (use that was modal!). Also Star choose to have non-overlapping tiled windows (except for modal dialogues & style sheets.) The windowing was changed in later versions to allow any window to overlap.
What’s even more confusing is that Xerox had lots of systems including smalltalk, interlisp, star, Cedar & Tajo at the time Lisa was released. They also had lots or prototypes systems including Rooms and the Alto for that matter.
Apple absolutely also did their own research and design that was unique. And in cases the duplicated earlier research but came to a different conclusion (for example the number of buttons on a mouse.)
I think Apple did more with direct manipulation than others did taking it to more extremes — but you can still see that in other earlier systems.
In context those are just tweaks ... Xerox designed the entire WIMP (Windows, Icons, Mouse, Pointer) UI concept, including the bitmapped display it is based on, first commercial mouse, ethernet networking ...
Xerox's invention was visionary and pioneering. Apple's was just engineering iteration.
It's as if one company designed the automobile and you want to give outsized credit to someone else who added turn indicators.
The part so-often left out of this story (that Apple "stole IP from Xerox") is that the C-suite at Xerox got special considerations during AAPL's IPO, in exchange for access to their engineers in Palo Alto. From the POV of these former salesmen-turned-executives, it was fiscally worthwhile (they generally despised/misunderstood PARC engineers).
Xerox, of course, almost immediately liquidated their AAPL holdings (doh!).
Recalled from reading Dealers of Lightning at Xerox PARC (my favorite non-fiction book of the past few years).
Bill Atkinson is the humblest, sweetest, most astronomically talented guy -- practically the opposite of Rony Abovitz! I think they're on very different drugs. The Psychedelic Inspiration For Hypercard, by Bill Atkinson, as told to Leo Laporte.
"In 1985 I swallowed a tiny fleck of gelatin containing a medium dose of LSD, and I spent most of the night sitting on a concrete park bench outside my home in Los Gatos, California." ...
PhotoCard by Bill Atkinson is a free app available from the iTunes App store, that allows you to create custom postcards using Bill's nature photos or your own personal photos, then send them by email or postal mail from your iPad, iPhone or iPod touch.
Bill Atkinson, Mac software legend and world renowned nature photographer, has created an innovative application that redefines how people create and send postcards.
With PhotoCard you can make dazzling, high resolution postcards on your iPad, iPhone or iPod touch, and send them on-the-spot, through email or the US Postal Service. The app is amazingly easy to use. To create a PhotoCard, select one of Bill's nature photos or one of your own personal photos. Then, flip the card over to type your message. For a fun touch, jazz up your PhotoCard with decorative stickers and stamps. If you're emailing your card, it can even include an audible greeting. When you've finished your creation, send it off to any email or postal address in the world!
Bill mentions a special card in the Apple II. My sense is that these were not interactive — merely static images generated on a computer to get a sense of real estate — and of course as talking points to replace hand-wavy gestures.
I remember seeing the Lisa demoed at a computer show in London (c.1980) - and drawing a huge crowd. Still, it was slow and very expensive - 10,000 GBP back then, or around $50K today.
This stuff is why I am so cynical about modern software development management. Bill Atkinson wrote QuickDraw, a masterpiece of low level programming, but also had a very solid grasp about what it was for right down to the UX it was to enable, and as shown here how the UX evolved with user testing. These days the idea someone can span that range is seen as an impossibility.
Yeah, it was an amazing team, and it's well-worth reviewing the stories at Folklore.org --- a good starting point is this retrospective:
https://www.folklore.org/Joining_Apple_Computer.html
He also wrote Hypercard, and I'd really like to see a modern successor which had the attributes:
- stand-alone desktop app (and/or app for iPad on app store)
- simple syntax (block diagramming like Scratch/Blockly seems a natural fit)
- simple creation/arrangement of standard GUI elements (so that localization and accessibility still work)
- being opensource (still feeling burned by having donated to Runtime Revolution/Livecode's opensource effort)
(so basically a modern, opensource alternative to VisualBasic, and yes, I keep asking about this --- there are lots of programs in this space, but none are quite as easy/simple as to have gotten me past the hurdle of download/install/actually try making something/being successful at it, and I freely admit I'm a mediocre programmer with not enough time who is bogged down on his current project....)
Bill has a great interview with a podcast called Triangulation, couple hours covering all kinds of subjects
https://twit.tv/shows/triangulation/episodes/361
> These days the idea someone can span that range is seen as an impossibility.
I don't know about that, but in many/most organisations it's actively discouraged so you simply don't see it. That naturally occurs in large corporations where individuals have very narrow responsibilities, but I've also been surprised to find it happening even in the smallest of startups on occasion.
It is very hard to be allowed to push or invent anything new in an area that isn’t your job description.
>These days the idea someone can span that range is seen as an impossibility.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabrice_Bellard ?
His software was so strong, it made the Macintosh what it was at the time, and indirectly shaped Windows and Linux’s UI to either imitate or showboat against it. The magnitude of his contributions to everything we think was normal now can’t even be stated. Apple drifts around more but the products still have a lot of his DNA in it.
Agree. I hate to see Bill and team not get the credit they deserve. There is the idea (so famously put forward by Bill Gates) that Windows and Lisa (Mac) both ripped off Xerox — and I think that is misleading at best. As you can see in the Polaroids, Lisa took the lead from Xerox but then charted their own course. (Windows, it is said, then copied that.)
And then in a twist of the plot, Steve Jobs said "great artists steal" ...
> QuickDraw (...) These days the idea someone can span that range is seen as an impossibility.
Reminds me of that guy who built a feature-complete web-version of Photoshop.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33334521
Did agile lead to this?
Features are planned in sprints. Add a widget here, remove a widget there. We end up with no design principles or vision, just a Frankenstein monster of junk.
His process sounds a lot like (dare I say) waterfall. Spending a long time in the design phase until you know what you want to build.
From the video and what I've read at folklore.org it sounds more like what Agile purports to be, writing software in a tight iteration loop, trying things, getting feedback and adapting to the changing needs of the project.
I think where Agile goes wrong is people thinking that you don't need someone who is actually experienced and good at writing software like this (like Atkinson), you can just pick a random individual off the streets who a lot of the time can't even code, and have them take a theoretical course about writing software like this.
Your question made me throw up in my mouth. RAD, Agile, Dacom, etc. were attempts to codify natural processes so that there could be some semblance of accountability for the resource allocations. They were not a glimmer in the eye of their warped creators eyes until decades after Lisa.
What? No it’s not, spanning a huge range like this is the prototypical skill set for a startup founder.
It’s crazy to post a take like this on the website of Ycombinator, whose entire business model revolves around finding and elevating exactly those types of people.
I don't get the connection between the skillset of a startup founder and someone like Bill. While Jobs showcases taking something from vision to product, your Wozniaks and Atkinsons solved the countless problems at steps along the entire path of the journey. These seem like very complimentary but distinct skillsets. I interpreted the OP as stating there's a lack of the latter, but they didn't comment on the former.
Every startup goes through a phase where there are very few technical people spanning a huge range of responsibilities. Not all founders or early employees are Steve Jobs. Many are like Bill Atkinson: a broadly talented person who shapes many aspects of a product in development.
While Apple was not a startup at the time Bill did his work there, the Mac project very much was a startup inside Apple.
Would you say if Bill is the Woz of software or if Woz is the Bill of hardware?
Well Woz was pretty good at software too. He wrote a lot of the early Apple software, including Integer Basic (to write games) and the low level disk software, called RWTS for Read/Write Track/Sector.
I love the Computer History Museum (this is published on their channel).
The museum itself is not so special, but it's run by all these retired volunteer industry veterans that have incredible stories to tell, and they are such delightful and smart people. They were the ones at the front-lines when everything was starting.
There was a day they were demonstrating the first commercially available harddisk from 1956 [0], it would be one thing to see it behind glass but the volunteers had built an arduino interface to drive it and interface it to bring it back to life, and hearing them explain how everything works with the requisite enthusiasm was a great experience for a vintage computer nerd. That sucker is pneumatic !
[0] https://www.computerhistory.org/storageengine/first-commerci...
Disclaimer: I'm a member of the Computer History Museum
My favorite part about the Computer History Museum is the events they hold occasionally where they have live interviews and demos from legendary figures in computing. Over the years I've been to events celebrating the 45th anniversary of the Xerox Alto (including a live demo of Smalltalk-76 run by Dan Ingalls on a Xerox Alto!), the 40th anniversary of the Apple Lisa, and the 40th anniversary of the original Apple Macintosh. There's also a chance to meet legendary figures in person. I've met and had conversations with Dan Ingalls, Yoshiki Ohshima (who is a long-time collaborator of Xerox PARC legend Alan Kay), Charles Simonyi (created the Bravo word processor at Xerox PARC, became wealthy at Microsoft, and founded Intentional Software), Marshall Kirk McKusick (BSD), David Ungar (created the Self programming language), and Donald Knuth (The Art of Computer Programming, Concrete Mathematics, TeX, and much more).
I'm also a fan of the museum's recorded interviews with legendary figures and the digital artifacts they have, including source code to historical projects.
One of the best parts about living near Silicon Valley, in my opinion, is being able to meet and converse with people who made significant contributions to computing, since many of them live in Silicon Valley. While the cost of living is a challenge (I'm a tenure-track professor who teaches CS and thus I don't have a FAANG salary, not to mention I don't get bonuses or stock grants), it's great being able to be in close proximity to the people who encouraged me to pursue a career in computing.
As a CHM staffer who produced the Lisa@40 and Mac@40 events, I'm so gratified to hear these were as meaningful to you as they were to me! :)
So grateful to have you as a member. Don't miss our upcoming 1995 retrospective event focusing on Netscape's IPO and Windows 95 & Internet Explorer, on August 26! Should be a another fun nostalgic event: https://computerhistory.org/events/1995-the-internets-big-ba...
Oh, and I sat in on the interview with Bill Atkinson posted by OP and it's great to see this clip getting some love from HN. Our Oral History program is so awesome too. --David Murphy
Is Steve Russell—the original LISP implementer and Spacewar! co-creator—still showing up these days?
Bill Atkinson, inventor of Atkinson dithering!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_dithering
Wild that drag and drop came so late in the development: only when the "Finder" was trying to solve user-initiated file copying operations.
To anyone who thought Apple simply copied what they called at Xerox Parc, check this one out.
The Xerox influence was real but limited - Apple's team iterated extensively as shown in these polaroids, adding crucial innovations like drag-and-drop, pull-down menus, and the desktop metaphor that weren't in the original Alto/Star interfaces.
The desktop metaphor absolutely was in the Xerox Star and that was copied by the Lisa team (and carried over to the Mac) after they viewed it when Star was first announce. That’s well documented. The Star also had limited pull down menus mostly a single menu item on the top right of every window that was hamburger-like in design that had items in it.
The Xerox Development Environment (TAJO/XDE) was more windows like where windows were processes and shrunk down to the bottom of the screen when closed. Star was developed using Tajo but are completely separate systems with very different user interfaces. For example Tajo used cut/copy/paste and any window could be set overlapping where as Star use a MOVE, COPY where use selected the object pressed the verb action button, and then selected the destination (use that was modal!). Also Star choose to have non-overlapping tiled windows (except for modal dialogues & style sheets.) The windowing was changed in later versions to allow any window to overlap.
What’s even more confusing is that Xerox had lots of systems including smalltalk, interlisp, star, Cedar & Tajo at the time Lisa was released. They also had lots or prototypes systems including Rooms and the Alto for that matter.
Apple absolutely also did their own research and design that was unique. And in cases the duplicated earlier research but came to a different conclusion (for example the number of buttons on a mouse.)
I think Apple did more with direct manipulation than others did taking it to more extremes — but you can still see that in other earlier systems.
In context those are just tweaks ... Xerox designed the entire WIMP (Windows, Icons, Mouse, Pointer) UI concept, including the bitmapped display it is based on, first commercial mouse, ethernet networking ...
Xerox's invention was visionary and pioneering. Apple's was just engineering iteration.
It's as if one company designed the automobile and you want to give outsized credit to someone else who added turn indicators.
That is basically how cars have progressed though..
Sure - there's a lot of value that can be added though iterative refinement and enhancement, but let's give credit for innovation where it is due.
The part so-often left out of this story (that Apple "stole IP from Xerox") is that the C-suite at Xerox got special considerations during AAPL's IPO, in exchange for access to their engineers in Palo Alto. From the POV of these former salesmen-turned-executives, it was fiscally worthwhile (they generally despised/misunderstood PARC engineers).
Xerox, of course, almost immediately liquidated their AAPL holdings (doh!).
Recalled from reading Dealers of Lightning at Xerox PARC (my favorite non-fiction book of the past few years).
[0] amazon.com/Dealers-Lightning-Xerox-PARC-Computer-ebook/dp/B0029PBVCA/
[dead]
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21779399
DonHopkins on Dec 13, 2019 | parent | context | favorite | on: Bill Atkinson: Reflections on the 40th anniversary...
I recently posted these thoughts about Bill Atkinson, and links to articles and a recent interview he gave to Brad Myers' user interface class at CMU:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21726302
Bill Atkinson is the humblest, sweetest, most astronomically talented guy -- practically the opposite of Rony Abovitz! I think they're on very different drugs. The Psychedelic Inspiration For Hypercard, by Bill Atkinson, as told to Leo Laporte.
"In 1985 I swallowed a tiny fleck of gelatin containing a medium dose of LSD, and I spent most of the night sitting on a concrete park bench outside my home in Los Gatos, California." ...
https://www.mondo2000.com/2018/06/18/the-inspiration-for-hyp...
Full interview with lots more details about the development of HyperCard:
https://twit.tv/shows/triangulation/episodes/247?autostart=f...
Bill Atkinson's guest lecture in Brad Meyer's CMU 05-640 Interaction Techniques class, Spring 2019, Feb 4, 2019:
https://scs.hosted.panopto.com/Panopto/Pages/Viewer.aspx?id=...
Including polaroids of early Lisa development.
About PhotoCard:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160511170432/http://www.billat...
PhotoCard by Bill Atkinson is a free app available from the iTunes App store, that allows you to create custom postcards using Bill's nature photos or your own personal photos, then send them by email or postal mail from your iPad, iPhone or iPod touch.
Bill Atkinson, Mac software legend and world renowned nature photographer, has created an innovative application that redefines how people create and send postcards.
With PhotoCard you can make dazzling, high resolution postcards on your iPad, iPhone or iPod touch, and send them on-the-spot, through email or the US Postal Service. The app is amazingly easy to use. To create a PhotoCard, select one of Bill's nature photos or one of your own personal photos. Then, flip the card over to type your message. For a fun touch, jazz up your PhotoCard with decorative stickers and stamps. If you're emailing your card, it can even include an audible greeting. When you've finished your creation, send it off to any email or postal address in the world!
It looks like that these were actually generated on an Apple II driving the framebuffer-to-CRT subsystem of a Lisa.
Bill mentions a special card in the Apple II. My sense is that these were not interactive — merely static images generated on a computer to get a sense of real estate — and of course as talking points to replace hand-wavy gestures.
Great video (recorded in 2022?) from Bill Atkinson himself, and a nice companion to Andy Hertzfeld's account at:
https://www.folklore.org/Busy_Being_Born.html
CHM seems to have multiple videos with Bill Atkinson. Now I need to watch the one about the Lisa source code!!
I remember seeing the Lisa demoed at a computer show in London (c.1980) - and drawing a huge crowd. Still, it was slow and very expensive - 10,000 GBP back then, or around $50K today.
More likely late 82 or even 83 when you saw it.
Could be :) This was it's first showing in the UK.
Thank you for posting this. RIP Bill Atkinson
Lake